After all, their target audience is college boys and the girls who dress them. If you want to dress like an antique (or a romanticized version of Take Ivy), go right ahead. Later, one can learn the exceptions. Do we really need ObrienCare? Its not the buttondown collar thats out of place with a suit, its the coarse (for want of a better term) weave of the oxford cloth. The shirts are made of a totally different material and have a different feel. Im sure if the London visitor were to wear a more refined fabric button down with a smooth worsted suit he would not receive the ridicule. A button down oxford shirt worn with a natural shoulder sack suit and repp tie is about as Ivy as it gets. Even Knowles picked a pink shirt to be his emblem of non-traditionalism in 1959s Separate Peace. Regular OCBD fabric looks too casual. Does anyone else remember the creative advertising OBrien did for Calvin Klein? I take your point but I would dissent from the claim that todays method of correction (i.e., the kinds of courses identified by S.E.) . Rules are personal things, like do you put your shoes on last or your trousers. What I think is a bigger issue of contention is whether one can wear a bow tie with a buttondown collar. Including the sciences, math, history, and philosophy. Not bad eh? I didnt, unlike many of the old men referenced in this thread, grow up in the 1950s/60s, when, I suppose, dressing exclusively in black, gray, white and navy (and looking like a postal carrier) and wearing OCBDs with suits was all the rage. Press carried a Tussah silk formal button down shirt in the late 1950s with black placket studs on the shirtfront. The first instance occurs in question-and-answer format in Glenn OBriens Style Guy column: Most of my dress shirts are buttondown- collar oxfords, but I recently started a job overseas and Im receiving mixed reviews on pairing them with ties. Its completely fine that not everyone agrees with the look I wouldnt argue that spread collar dress shirts look BAD with a suit and variety is the spice of life, so have at your spread collars. They werent considered significant. The ways in which conventions are broken defines any stylistic movement, not the ways in which they are followed. The OCBD may not be the dressiest shirt, but it certainly can be worn as a dress shirt (meaning, with a suit and tie). I like the button down collar. Heck, wear your tuxedo to church, or to work. Button-down collared shirts are the most casual long-sleeve dress shirts you can wear. OCBD with a suit should depend on the fabric, shouldnt it? Today, I'm going to be talking about button-down collar rules. Im now utterly confused by where AEV is coming from. Most quirks of the Ivy persuasion are due to a lack of giving a damn. Comment by SartoriallyCavalier November 10, 2013 @ 4:54 pm When next you appear it will be in a plain-point collar shirt. The case was, of course, lost at that moment. Im going to add whether you can/should wear an OCBD (or loafers) with a suit to my list of topics that must never be brought up at the dinner table (along with religion and politics). Nonetheless, I recall reading a Canadian style icons opinion on the subjectHarry Rosen whose name is on the largest chain of high end menswear stores in Canada. Crew, America Eagle, etc. Oddly, you inclded old Brooks scans that show every one of their OCBDs paired with blazers and non-matching trousers not a single formal suit and OCBD among any of the pics. We were responding less to the when in Rome (or London) angle than the blanket assertion that a buttondown is not a dress shirt. Which suggests that the liberal arts really have failed if they didnt broaden anyones perspective. What an asinine comment. It works just as well when one removes the homosexuals who run. Enter casual Fridayand that is when the decline began, Id say that a button-down is either for dressing down a suit or matching a blazer, and so should be held to more relaxed offices, casual Fridays, evening outings, and the weekends. The advice was sound in England or anywhere else in regard to the fabric they just lumped the button down in as part of the statement. Ditto on loafers. I am sure that this topic would make an interesting poll. And it is not just Brooks who sells them. Those of the Internet high church might ask where the madness ends. Perhaps if more people had read his book, fewer people would pay any attention to anything that Glenn OBrien says about anything. It was the dominant style. OCBD is a casual dress shirt that is perfectly fine with a blazer and tie, but never with a suit. Over at the Black Fleece collection (designed by Thom Browne,) the madness never ends. http://gayinfluence.blogspot.com/2013/02/fashion-designer-thom-browne.html. They know how to dress, but we shouldnt confuse what theyre doing with classic American style or use it as a guide for our day-to-day, traditional office/formal attire. Some exceedingly casual people even use button-down to refer to any shirt that has buttons. Didnt we take the ingredients we wanted from European culture, cuisine and wardrobes and come up with our own way of doing things? Its ironic that the term button-down means stuffy, overly formal, etc., when the button-down-collar shirt is the least formal of the dress shirts. You might say it was a subtle Im going to be comfortable and still wear, the suit. The point collar and a collar pin that Bruce sported not too long ago simple, elegant and stylish. - dapperQ, Formal Shirt Fashion 2013 Ideas in Cozibox.com, Women Oxford Shirts With Button Down Collar - An Fabrics, an impertinent interloper wearing tassel loafers with his tuxedo, http://www.brooksbrothers.com/Black-Fleece-Tuxedo-Shirt/FE00031,default,pd.html?dwvar_FE00031_Color=WHIT&contentpos=41&cgid=0714, http://www.gq.com/style/blogs/the-gq-eye/2007/02/the-perfect-button-down-shirt.html#ixzz2kMycHsDf, http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?107198-Brooks-Brothers-catalogue-scans-1979-1984/page2. Depends completely on the suit and tie. Could GQs purpose be Europeanization via the semi-spread collar. Ditto on loafers. Moreover, and perhaps ironically, the term button-down long ago worked its way into American usage as denoting an atmosphere of formality, fidelity to rules, risk-aversion and conservatism. I would also like to explore whether the often cited BrksBrthrs and JPrs and notable others even know what heckles they are doing. If follks on here think thats something to celebrate, fetishize, and memorialize, so be it. Americans tend to wear lots of stuff that simply doesnt work.so, in this context, the preponderance of something, hardly makes it appropriate. Press man, wearing nothing but traditional soft-shouldered, undarted, single-vented Ivy League suits, I think youre fine. I'm not going to mention it because a true gentleman never points it out unless you've got something hanging on your teeth, then you're going to go tell somebody. It annoys me when magazines publishes stuff like this. If youre a J. Of course, its also interesting to see how the site goes off on any level of formality slightly different from its own consensus. Are you certain their intentions are ironic? Consider one of the final scenes in Jane Austens *Persuasion* in which the heroine points out that women have been portrayed a certain way because men wrote the history books. You wear formal business suits, do you not work formal business hours? If you prefer a button down collar, there are plenty of more appropriate shirting choices. Imagine my distress upon learning that GQ and its readership frown upon my sense of style. Either you think GQ is being treasonous by suggesting OCBDs arent formal wear/appropriate for a business suit, or you dont. And so on. First of all, to state that Glenn OBrien has 40 years of writing or style experience as any kind of justification for his writing on mens fashion is nonsense. Let's take it down a notch and as we know, right below a suit comes a blazer with a pair of dark trousers so it's not truly a suit, and that's where about as formal as I would recommend that a man wear a button-down collared shirt with this type of a setup. Even Flusser points out that OCBDs have been generally accepted in America since the 1920s. Mine is fact. My steadfast rule since age 20 (and Im now 53) is this: OCBD with a blazer, slip on loafers, and repp tie; pinpoint spread or point collar with suits, lace-up shoes and (always) when wearing a bow tie. Were Hiring Also I love bow ties with BDs. OBrien is not a reputable guide for mens dress, nor has GQ been worth a (&@! In any case, S.E. To me, formality depends more on the cloth than the buttons sewn on it. Contact Us Just becasue you can does not mean you should. Judging by their graphic, is any type of collar acceptable?! Today such a course is impossible and eighteenth-century women writers are justly prized. The other thing that makes me laugh is when very young guys make pronouncement about tradtion. For example, an Oxford cloth button down shirt with a seersucker suit seems far better than a dressy spread collar shirt that is better worn with a worsted wool suit. At the end of the day, my advice is don't wear that combination, but if you see somebody who is or if you do, more power to you and best of luck, but someone should not overstep their boundaries and try to correct that. Most Brits say its a faux pas. Some Japanese do it. Let me just go ahead and explain the rules of button-down collars and then I'll talk about the bigger issue, which is what if you see someone violating the rule. I'm not talking novelty ties here. I will echo those who said that should most men learn how easy it is to dress appropriately, GQ and most of these mens fashion brands would quickly go out of business. Never engage an unarmed man in a battle of the wits. Is Warren Buffet now a style guide (because hes successful)? However, if you're in a working environment where suits are hardly ever worn, are you just happy just to see men making the effort and should we try to make them feel bad if they break this rule?. Be the best-dressed man on the bus! OK, let me drop some truth on this discussion. returning to the original piece, theres mention of the OCBD demonstrating that one is putting ones liberal-arts degree to good use. Even with a tux (which is taking things too far, I admit. Is the oxford too Americacentric to take abroad? You may want to offer guidance in a very gentle way. Because when one needs to wear a tie, one just adds it to the shirt already being worn. It is the most American of collars, and its intent which is also the great virtue of American clothing generally is to relax the appearance, to bring a touch of dishabille to the formality of business garb. Wearing a button down oxford/pinpoint shirt as formal business attire is the same as wearing loafers with a formal business suitit screams, Im having trouble growing up. The next time that you find yourself in a formal business setting (Whatever that means. Privacy & Affiliate Policy When men argue about the appropriateness of clothing do they not realize that they are not wearing a frock coat with a top hat? Ill wear a straight-collar for the nicest of events, but on the daily I wear an oxford or button-down pinpoint. I wear them with my old school Burberry blazer with the burnished Prorsum buttons, too. Sort of maybe. I find myself agreeing with Marci. Personal opinion here, folks, not a pronouncement on correctness.. We notice the same thing when it comes to the cult of formalwear on the Internet. I'm Antonio Centeno, the founder of RMRS. Really, its just a casual shirt that has no place under a formal suit. The picture they used at the top was not an OCBD it was nearly see through obviously broadcloth or end on end. Bottom line is, it is not good for GQs business to support any kind of enduring style. I think for the non-rubes its fairly obvious that Im only using the term formal business suit to differentiate and avoid confusion. An OCBD is the easiest and least fetishy thing that can be worn. Probably about a striped tie is about as formal as I would want to go with the button-down. I wear it with a sport coat and slacks, or sportcoat and khakis. Then follow it with, but I wear mine with a Tux, pajama top or whatever you fancy. On the other hand, wouldnt it be nice to learn something from the countless men who came before you, men who wanted to look good and present themselves well? The English do regard a BD& Tie as incorrect, but just as unbuttoned cuffs are Sprezz and Wrong, so this is both Ivy and Wrong. Ditto re: OCBDs and formal suits. Sort of like shrunken, tight double breasted suits, 2 inch wide knit ties, and down-puffy-sporty-outerwear over formal attire. This is a common mispercecption. Im flattered that youve taken an interest in my professional time management thank you! So normally, you wouldn't see them worn with a suit because a suit, by its very nature, is more formal. It looks great on Paul Newman (above), or on Fred Astaire (who was always about to break into dance), but what about you? There they would encounter dinner jackets in madras, batik, tartan or challis, depending on the season; green trousers with a side stripe in Christmas holly; Paul Winstons youthful habit of wearing a pink buttondown with his dinner jacket; and perhaps even an impertinent interloper wearing tassel loafers with his tuxedo. It is still considered a more sporting style, and, particularly outside America, traditionally dressed men still do not wear suits with this style of collar.. Which is it? Look at what is actually worn by real people and not what is talked about on the internet and in fashion magazines (emphasis on fashion). Style is what I wear. Absolutely. AEV, I might be willing to agree with you: an OCBD isnt the best match for, as you put it, a formal suit.. Thats an important distinction in my mind. Wouldnt it be nice to be traditional, even just a little bit? Sure, if you want to be independent-minded, even an iconoclast, wear a button-down shirt with your tuxedo. I have to agree with AEV when he writes, You all seem to fetishize the OCBD believing that its a symbol of something aspirational or some sort of signal of unstudied nonchalance/youthful rebellion. almost all of York Street, contrast color club collar shirts, forward point collar shirts, huge, baggy sweaters, etc. Don is spot on. One of the most powerful men in Wall Street as well as D.C. Also, in this pic is Chuck Prince while CEO of CitiBank Notice anything AEV? Fortunately for CC, swinging golf clubs at the Brooks Brothers simulator is neither. By this logic, the button-down is the most formal, as it has the highest button count. What is your opinion? Every day you reached in you closet, out came the suit. They were developed for wear during sport thats why Brooks Brothers still calls them the polo collar.. Almost no one will notice, or care about, the style of your shirt collar. I will encourage the formal BD option. Retailers are fishing for men, and trying to see what bites (or even nibbles) in this current emerging mega digital economy. Your evidence is anecdotal, and cherry-picked. Of course, the story of American style has been, over the last hundred years or so, a march towards the casual. You can certainly wear an OCBD with a suit. So match it with a casual tie, it looks pretty good. Having been lucky enough to be around many leaders of business (as an observer due to my job, not my status), I can tell you that a button down collar is common. Why was he wearing a pink OCBD with his dinner jacket? The reality is, unfortunately, that Ive found myself on wi-fi enabled cross country business flights the last couple days..giving me plenty of time to acqaint myself with how you spend large chunks of your own. For formalwear purists, we fear a country club dance during the Ivy heyday would be an invitation to an aneurism. and it doesnt at all refer to the button down collar but, rather, the buttoned-up or button front shirt. These will help you find your way back to planet earth: http://jpressonline.com/suits-pressidential/, http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?107198-Brooks-Brothers-catalogue-scans-1979-1984&p=1377462#post1377462. Press, I have never attempted to dress like the mannequins in the catalogs/stores or on their Web site.nor do I agree with many of their style rules or decisions (e.g. Ive always known that this outfit boarders on casual, but never contemplated that it was not still on the dress side of the line. Chinos for everything from playing sports to meeting royalty? Going back farther, to the time when the fictitious Nick Carraway was a struggling bond salesman, the buttondown was even the chosen shirt of Wall Street. Hes usuallly the staunchest defender of tradition, and now he cries foul at one of the things that has most characterized this style of dressing for nearly a century: that the buttondown is the shirt of choice, even with a suit, and that tassel loafers with a suit are perfectly acceptable for American gentlemen. I wear an OBDC with a tie, blue blazer, grey wool slacks or khakis, and loafers to work pretty much every day. The reality is that the Italians do it in a fashion-forward, almost ironic way.not in a classic, traditional manner. BD with a Tie? Im not saying OCBDs are neccesarily wrong with a suit and I dont think AEV is either but I do agree that OCBDs are, first and foremost casual shirts, they made their way into formal suiting as a trend in the 50s/60s, they look forced and outmoded in todays business world, and that its irrelevant what a handful of dead or septuagenarians guys might wear. Generally, I see men who have combined these elements thoughtlessly, perhaps because their wives bought them a dozen shirts one day at Costco and they went from there. Agree. I take a different view. Since someone asked, yes, WFB frequently wore non-button down collar shirts with suits.especially when he was in the public eye/on TV hes in a point collar shirt with a suit in some of his most famous TV debates. I love the iGent speak about fetishizing clothes or styles being aspirational. Just doesnt work with plain old oxford cloth button downs. Its greatness is not simply Berrymans execution of a long poem, but that he dealt with a writer of true greatness (which, he, as a professor, knew) who had a lot to say about women AND men AND human nature; not because she was a woman, but because she had a first class mind. Example: Rule: No Oxford cloth button down shirts with suits. The shirt was the introduction. When youre committing to an American trad aesthetic. Clearly natural-shoulder dinner jackets with center vents break certain widely accepted conventions of form. I am English and have always worn a white button-down to every job interview of mine and got every job. Sigh Im not trying to look like a Duke or Lord. Berrymans greatest poem is Homage to Mistress Bradstreet, published in 1956. It doesnt surprise me that people who want to wear their OCBDs with their suits, and dress a little more casually, would agree with CC that its perfectly acceptable..and, as a result, bend over backwards trying to find ammunition to substantiate it (the Italians do it! We recall a tale, perhaps recounted by Paul Fussell, of a mother of moderate means who was so proud her son got invited to a society dance that she bought him a new suit. GQ changes its opinions about appropriate dress with almost every volume of the magazine. This type of buttondown is NOT a dress shirt. You've got to check out this video. It is definitely something to celebrate. I usually rail against unorthodoxy, but I plan on being married in an OCBD with french cuffs. But, 95% of the time I wear BDs with suits just as formal or not as those few. And who is Paul Winston anyway? And so on. Is it not possible for the BD&Tie to be both incorrect AND Ivy? Were talking Manhattan, Kansas, right? ). The OCBD I mean. @AEWMason In fact, the term buttoned-up is what youre thinking of (to mean risk aversion, conservatism, etc.) In fact they may even accuse home of inputting a bit of sprezzatura (there that should get everyone fired up). Solid light pink spread collar shirts are rebellious? Button-down collars, they are casual. This comment thread is far too long. Get a life frat boys. But, the reality in my opinion is that that brief trend was more of hangover from the casual and campus obsessed 1960s..and now, as OCBDs are cheaply recreated, shrunken, and fetishized by everyone from J. Click here to discover more about our mission here at RMRS. As for J. They are salesmen for petesake and are capable of taking the strangest viewpoints and directions in hopes of moving a weak offering. The collar speaks volumes. and so on). Go tell it to the ghost of Giovanni Agnelli and JFK. Its my sense of humor that draws me here in the first place. Timothy asks: In the pictures accompanying your post That Enviable Roll, several of the gentlemen appeared to be wearing suits. Your email address will not be published. By the way I feel quite comfortable wearing OCBD with a suit and tie in Manhattan. Click here to discover The Style System , the BEST Professional Style Course on the planet! J. This comment deserves to be engraved in stone: Comment by Mike November 10, 2013 @ 7:32 pm. With a bowtie. I think the graphic in the article is part of this tendency to put down those with liberal arts degrees. Im young, and I know. Seems inconceivable. since Art Cooper turned over the reins. I would guess that in todays women writers courses Anne Bradstreet is either ignored or takes a back seat to inferior writers whose observations are rooted in political motivation which, as Trilling observed, almost always leads to mediocrity if not ruin.

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button down collar shirt with suit