yep, bravo, herr lagerfeld and mr. raynaud. Opens with a tart, refreshing grapefruit. Its also great perfume to gift somebody who is not a fragrance snob. if I just need to smell good, or I'm going away for a couple of days, this is what I put in the suitcase. As much i wear this, more i like it. This is a good aftershave. Would never buy personally, but I like it. A sharp, airy ambroxan scent. The top is so invigorating and energizing: a sharp and piercing grapefruit mixed together with a tart and slightly sweet blood orange. Dont blind buy this one. Overall it holds to my skin well with 5 hours of performance and will even project freshness for a good 3-5 hours. It stands out from all the in-your-face mainstream lemon/lime scents. Hardly anyone will dislike this, blind buy worthy and excelent gift for your friends. To be fair I blind bought this from a discounter for $25 knowing it had poor performance. all the notes are very subtle but the performance is amazing. Lagerfeld has also photographed models and celebrities for magazines, and has books of his photos and illustrations published. It is fresh, yet sophisticated, VERY easy to wear and more unique than your typical citrus fragrance. The only thing that matters is when you put this on you feel cool, confident, and attractive. Fragrantica Inc, United States. The Library Collection Opus XIII Silver Oud, Opinion: We Dont Need to Worry So Much about Fragrance Reviewer Credibility, Creeds Love In White: Grain-Fed Magnolia, Tropical Vacations with Tommy Bahama Fragrances, First Fragrances: Dolce & Gabbana for Women (1992), Davidoff Cool Water Street Fighter Champion Summer Editions for 2021, WPC: Interview With Alexandre Illan, Perfumer of the Rammstein Line and More, Tuscany Per Uomo Aramis: Friday Dresscode Cologne, Marc Jacobs Daisy Ever So Fresh Eau de Parfum, Original vs Flanker: Elizabeth Taylor White Diamonds, Sparkling, & Night, Karl Lagerfeld Hamburg Alster toalet (. I still purchased it and boy was I surprised. This is definitely office, dressy occasions and I would go as far as to say intimate settings. Simply fantastic!A great fragrance from Mr. Lagerfeld. Karl Lagerfeld Bois de Vtiver toale (16.10 EUR), Right now there are 28 items on or Buy it online 47 items on, Perfume rating4.14out of5 with924 votes. Indeed it is similar to Declaration..which is very nice Definitely similar to Declaration L'eau, the florals really punch through in the first 3 hours. Here's hoping! This fragrance made me to dislike vetiver at all. Through Press Play, companies have an opportunity to massage customers?? Up for sale or trade within USA, PM me for details, Guaranteed lowest market price on that one auction site By far the best Lagerfeld scent out there. A lot of favorite notes are in here. Not the dark vetiver like Encre Noir, nor the greener vetiver of Guerlain or Tom Ford. This is amazing perfume. Karl Lagerfeld fragrances were made in collaboration with perfumers Betty Busse, Michel Girard, Serge Majoullier, Christine Nagel, Jean-Christophe Hrault, Jean-Christophe Herault, Cecile Matton, Nicolas Beaulieuu, Sophie Labbe, Christophe Raynaud, Firmenich, Pascal Gaurin, Bruno Jovanovic, Sandrine Malin, Sophia Grojsman, Emilie (Bevierre) Coppermann, Mark Buxton, Olivier Cresp, Ron Winnegrad, Alexis Dadier, Alienor Massenet and Pierre-Constantin Guros. I think thats the big thing that sets this fragrance apart at the beginning - these are very ripe citrus notes, like as if the fruit was on its last day before turning, where you could rip apart the fruit with your hands and smell it dripping down your arms. Top notes are Mandarin Orange and Mint; middle notes are Sage, Lavender and Freesia; base notes are White Woods, Moss and Musk. Mild combo of citruses, rose and vetiver. I just received this perfume today. One of the most misleading names in perfumery. Outstanding fragrance. Layer it on something flowery or something sweet for a whole new scent (essentially it doubles your scent wardrobe lmao). I'm enjoying it though, and it reminds me of the Dior Homme Sport 2017 due to the blood orange. Not a vetiver scent whatsoever, wrong name in my opinion. This is not a Vetiver bomb . Classy name and bottle might suggest a different olfactory experience.. what I get on my skin is an everlasting, never-evolving lemongrass/eucalyptus. Don't bother. Most of them say "goodfor the price". Cheap version of Cartier declarationsmells nice though and with average performance.This is recommended for a novice in the perfume game. Well-priced just get it. Bottle is just okay. @ffunch. Opens with a blast of ripe citrus fruit - the blood orange is round and not sharp or bitter, and the grapefruit is very ripe. Timeless. Really outstanding in the spring. In my skin is 50% TDH, 40% Declaration and 10% D. D'un Soir. ,, , . I simply wanted a cheap, nonsynthetic, warm weather frag that was pleasant and possibly had some vetiver in it. classy scent, excellent price makes for easy buy, the open is very good and the rest is goodnot a monster performer but exactly right for what it is. Thumbs up from me! Got my bottle of Lalique Pour Homme Equus today and it smells exactly the same as Bois de Vetiver but less sweet. It smells good, and not generic yet a mass appealing smell. Don't get much vetiver, but what the heck; this is a soothing and calm green-ish scent. Standout for me. This should be clear to people, before everyone starts whining about the poor projection or duration of the perfume. This is where BDV could evolve through it phases, leading to creamy, sweet vetiver and intimate embraces. Low price high quality. I have never smelled it on another person which means its not that popular and overused yet its mild, pleaesant, clean, refreshing and sooooo smooth. Fresh but also woody. Leaves a nice scent on your skin though. The initial scent is fair but it's gone in an instant. Perfect for spring, summer and warmer fall days. This one is really unique, I loved it instantly and still do after a few weeks. This smells absolutely great. Great citrus opening, light florals. This is not an earthy vetiver, so it is safe for most environments and won't be too challenging for those around. You can comfortably blind buy this. It's clean without being citrus, and earthy without being woody. I love this so much. But smells as cheap/ordinary as it is. In fact, I think there are better options for summer as well but with that said, it's so gorgeous, if you test it I doubt you'll be able to hold back from purchasing it. You will be pleasantly surprised. Has all the great elements to be a big dog, but it's a pup that stays on the porch!!! This is a new fragrance. I have a lot of fragrances and this is my absolute favorite at the moment. I was ready to sell it and even listed it on ebay, but nobody purchased it, so it sit in my wardrobe for about 1.5+ years. Reminds me of 90's general fresh scents. | Deutsch | Espaol | Franais | etina | Italiano | | Polski | Portugus | | | Nederlands | Srpski | Romn | | | | |, Copyrights 2006-2022 Fragrantica.com perfumes magazine - All Rights Reserved - do not copy anything without prior written permission. One of the worst performing fragrances I own. I get mostly Blood Orange, Ambroxan, and some Patchouli and Mint with minimal Rose tying them together. pity this delicious gem doesn't last and project. WOW! Blind buy worthy! Fresh, crisp. Children playing in the resort pools with dads, ladies place a flower behind an ear, fish jumping just off-shore, pre-dinner cocktails arriving on the terraces. I dont know why so many complain over weak performance. awesome fragrance, its such a great choice for this type of weather (20-25 C). Grapefruit + Ambroxan = long lasting nice sharp linear smell. Just ordered Bois de Yuzu, hopefully its a little stronger. Bois de Vetiver was launched in 2017. Still, I think this is wonderfully blended. Good performance. The same is true for the vetiver backbone that is fairly tame and subdued. I have Lalique Encre Noir which is one of the nicest and most interesting scents in my collection where vetiver is present but not so dominant, or the new flanker of Davidoff's Cool Water parfum where the vetiver is super smooth and pleasantly mixed with creamy citrus and both lovely and I use them frequently however Lagerfeld's Bois the Vetiver is on the other side where Dunhill Icon or Cerruti's 1881 Essential takes place where vetiver is stronger and somehow more dominant and it is just not pleasant or appealing to me at all. Just got this in today and yes it has some similarities to declaration and tdh but I would say it's closer to tds eau tres fraiche with the geranium note. Sort of the best of both worlds I would say.For the money you can't go wrong. I'll be using the heck out of it on hot days since nothing else I own smells like it. Opens with a sweet blood orange and quickly moves into cloying woodsy rose territory. You'd think that the ambroxan would help it last and project, but DEF NOT. Today, Karl Lagerfeld fragrances are produced in collaboration with Tommy Hilfiger. I liked it a lot. The grapefruit, vetiver, rose thing is very attractive. It lasts about 5 hours on me before it starts to fade. Karl Lagerfeld is also an accomplished photographer who shoots ad campaigns for Chanel, Fendi and his own line each year. This is my dumb reach for hot, humid summer days. Our robust yet cost-effective offerings are both tactile and experiential and support a myriad of corporate objectives. The opening is fruity and floral (blood orange with prominent rose), but I don't smell the freshness from grapefruit and mint at all. I'm not always great at picking out specific notes blindly, but can say that that a few notes listed I can actually pick up on.. Fragrance Reviews: 1,288,719 Fragrantica Inc, United States. It's on the side of fresh-sweet fragrances. Bright, fresh florals that is really uplifting! Top notes are Blood Orange, Pink Grapefruit and Mint; middle notes are Vetiver, Rose and Geranium; base notes are Ambroxan, Musk and Patchouli. Groundbreaking? Karl Hamburg Alster was launched in 2021. Smells fresh, invigorating, and has acceptable performance. It is very subtle on my skin, but the dry down is divine. When was the last time you saw scent of this profile done so skillfully in this price range? opening is just a tad synthetic but it quickly dries down. It is very nice from opening to close, and is nice to just smell on your skin or clothes from time to time, that type that you enjoy for yourself maybe more than caring about a compliment. I sprayed it on my shirt and it was still faint. The blend is impeccable and the smell is outstanding.Great scent for spring and summer for sure. Good way to smell like plasticine. This can be worn by women especially those who love vetiver.. There must be some different batches. The line changed its name back to Karl Lagerfeld in 2006, and began partnerships with Macy's and Sephora. Karl Lagerfeld is really onto something here, they just need to somehow amp up both the projecting and the longevity. A more refined and manly take of Acqua Di Parma Arancia Di Capri. I can feel no freshness in it. Collections: Wife loves it on me too, and masculine. Quite a nice scent and with a reasonable price it think i would be a great cheapy. As always! Forget the technical details. That being said, this can be a great office scent because it doesn't project much off my skin. That is clearly olfactory fatigue. Perfumes: 73,913 My first impression is, "It's nice, but not Mind-Blowing!" I hardly smell the vetiver(where is its earthy facet? However it is a very lovely unique fragrance. The mid gets a little woodier and slightly green (might be the rose); if there is any vetiver, it adds to the woodiness or cleanliness of the fragrance. Pretty unisex too. I feel like this is a well blended fragrance. Some light hearted Y Edp let's say. The price tag is low and the scent has cheap kind a feeling too. The rose in the drydown reminds me of L'Homme Ultime by YSL. It doesn't smell like a synthetic mess like a lot of cheaper fragrances. I am really impressed with this one - as noted below this is a crisp, clean vetiver - the citrus notes really complement it well in the opening and gradually give way to the rose as it dries down. If you have ever tried Cartier Declaration, Narciso Rodriguez Bleu Noir EDT or Hermes Parfum, this treads the same line and smells quite similar. For a fragrance named "Bois de Vetiver", the wood and vetiver notes are somehow quite muted to my nose. I don't get blood orange. I bought after tested it very masculines, fresh and young and the performance is very good. And the sillage/performance of this one are practically non-existent. This is very common with fruity fragrances. The base is woody and clean, not much to write home about. At Press Play we deliver intelligent solutions that simplify the process for businesses to stay in step with the dynamically changing technology landscape. Our collective professional experience demonstrates skills that are broadly transferable. Hard to beat in this price range. No love, only a like for me. Blind bought this and though I loved it, It recalls Cartiers Declaration immensely. The nose behind this fragrance is Emilie (Bevierre) Coppermann. They both announce their presence and can turn slightly dirty in a good way. Bois de Vetiver by Karl Lagerfeld is a Woody Aromatic fragrance for men. As others have noted, it is an inoffensive, summer dumb reach with some good longevity. Every day fragrance that I think could be worn anywhere. Very cheap in UK right now and a great one for the office. Very smooth, slightly sweetish and very sexy. Nice chanelesque bottle though. Fortunately now I like vetiver again, but I never want to smell this again. Worth trying. Seems well constructed and the staying power seems good to me. I did not keep the bottle, but it is a great juice for very reasonable price. I found this to be even better than I was expecting. just got this as a blind buy as at a super cheap price - nice clean fresh masculine scent - nothing special but your not paying for that either. For me, that's a good thing since I'm relatively new to fragrances and a little hesitant to try Vetiver-based and Oud-based fragrances. Designer Karl Lagerfeld has 36 perfumes in our fragrance base. I still suggest this as a purchase, the price makes this an okay buy. This is a really sexy, manly smell. try it for yourself, everyone has different DNA!!! Fragrance Reviews: 1,287,790 In colder months it will not survive but for those moderately warm spring and summer mornings this is just brilliant. Our team is highly motivated, fast-learning, task and detail-oriented with a proven ability to identify, analyze, and solve problems. This gem will always be in my arsenal. I just bought a bottle of Nike Man Blue for $10 today because I heard it was a great JPG Ultra Male clone, tested in comparison to this and it lasted 4x longer, there should be no excuses anymore for designer brands to produce watered down fragrances when a cheap $10 frag can outperform them, other than that can see this being a safe dumb reach as it is very non offensive scent. I'll leave an update after using a little longer. Fragrantica Trends is a relative value that shows the interest of Fragrantica members in this fragrance over time. Bois de Vetiver is not a "vetiver" dominant fragrance (I haven't smelled a whole lot of it, but the way people describe it online, I don't get much of it here). 7/10. And with a solid scientific background influencing our approach, these skills, together with our ability to work with and through people, translate into a broad range of capabilities within a wide array of applications. Lasts average 4 hours and then turns skin scent. Very versatile. This is a cheaper alternative to Terre D'Hermes Eau tres Fraiche. The scent smells really pleasant from opening to drydown. | Deutsch | Espaol | Franais | etina | Italiano | | Polski | Portugus | | | Nederlands | Srpski | Romn | | | | |, Copyrights 2006-2022 Fragrantica.com perfumes magazine - All Rights Reserved - do not copy anything without prior written permission. This is not something you will smell on many people, so you will hold some individuality when you wear it. Please read the Terms of Service and Privacy policy. Interesting how positive all the reviews and most of the comments about this parfum hence I bought it but sadly it is just not for meFunny, how vetiver can be used and be mixed in different scents. Not very well named. Answers. It quickly becomes a skin scent after the first hour or two. It reminds me of Mandarina Duck Man (spicier than this) and Kenzo Homme Boisee (Lagerfeld is sweeter). You wont need a PhD in olfactory chemistry to enjoy this one. Bought this in store for my boyfriend on Saturday and just fell in love with it on the spot. Just out and about today chillin' downtown. Youthful. This a fresh spicy perfume. This is great choice of fragrance for march-september period. 5-6 sprays on my skin with some sprinkles on clothing give me around 10 hours with great projection. I can barely smell this immediately after spraying. I wanted something nice and refreshing for summer and this cheapie ticks the box. +ONE turns Insight into Advantage. Its longevity is okay, it stays on skin for a around four to five hours; projection is okay for around one to two hours. In 8-9 minutes it becomes a beautiful skin scent.. if it was a little stronger I'd buy it immediately. Bright & fresh without smelling like everything else that's bright & fresh in the mainstream. Vetiver is one of my favorite note. As nice as the scent is for the price, I dare say you can find scents better than this one at a similar price if you are looking for a cheapie. Bois de Vetiver EdT by Karl Lagerfeld smells nice and is a safe fragrance for office. Huh. I paid only 13 euro for a 50ml bottle. My favorite of all cheapies, nicely done Mr Raynaud. *(UPDATED REVIEW): The truth is that Ive been looking for a good summer office fragrance for quite some time. Favorite from bois de line. Not exaggerating here --- the longevity of this one is awful. does what is says. Karl Lagerfeld Bois de Vtiver toale (. Karl Lagerfeld (born Karl Lagerfeldt) is a German-born artist and fashion designer now based in Paris. There is really no wood and hardly any Vetiver here (I'm a vetiver fan, so I know what to look for). Highly reccomend. I'm not sure about the Terre d'Hermes comparisons, because to me this isn't an earthy "dirty" citrus, nor is it too musky. A blind buy based on reviews, but pleased I did. Less spicy Cartier Declaration without cumin (which is the polarizing note making Declaration a big no no for some). From there, it loses performance rather fast and becomes a faint skin scent. No. His fashion career got off to a prestigious start in 1955 when he was awarded an apprenticeship at Pierre Balmain. The opening is the best part. Lagerfeld Gallery brand was launched in 1998, and has had successful collaborations with Diesel and H&M. There is nothing chemical, synthetic or challenging in it, which makes it a really safe blindbuy. Sparkling fresh. Ridiculously similar to YSL Y. A potential masterpiece, ruined by poor performance. Great value. Perfect for summer. Its cheap and quality, and what more could you really want? As others have said this isn't really a vetiver fragrance. Poorly received by critics, the collections nonetheless made a name for Lagerfeld and allowed him to begin working as a freelance designer for such varied houses as Tiziana, Chloe, Curiel and Fendi. Safe and cheap buy. Most appropriate in a casual setting.. Work, casual hangouts, after the gym.. Bois De Vetiver is a great value for $$, Amazing scent for the cash I'm not as sophisticated as most on here but to me this is a reminder of Hermes which I love. However, it lacks something special and it's a bit too weak, so I would not buy this for my collection, after I'd tested it on my skin for a few hours. All Fragrances | Kapsule | Lagerfeld Classic | LES PARFUMS MATIRES | Places by Karl LAGERFELD, Perfumes: 73,927 I am a huge fan of the blend, especially the citrus aspects. The one I tested and another, that I bought later. I will have to overspray to get decent projection. i got this for $19 so very much a cheapie. More metrosexual. I was able to snatch a bottle on eBay for $25 from a trusted seller. This really took me by surprise. Performance is good. Smells amazing but barely lasts and barely projects. I feel like I'm in the high school again. I'm surprised to read so many people emphasizing the performance while to me the scent was actually quite nice but the performance was absolutely horrible: A little bit of YSL Libre the first hour, then you have a smooth and gentle aura of citrus around you. Boss, Versace, Armani and other designer houses charge a price 3-4 times higher than lagerfeld for mostly generic crap thats been done over and over and over again. I also had another flanker, New York which smelled fresh and nice but for the price it's much better choice. A very nice, very well priced fragrance. And why should you? lacks longevity, but for 13euro i can spray it over and over the whole day. Our expertise is founded upon the core principles of learning, however, our promise to deliver is founded squarely upon our achievements. So well blendedi love this one! This is extremely sexy. This can be worn in all 4 seasons.. Very nice, friendly, soft fragrance. Perfume lovers: 793,062 Vetiver & Mint are subtle and it's not the dirty variety of vetiver. Great price point! Close to skin no sillage, just poor, it has vetiver but not that dirty grassy smell, pushes vetiver into a new category. Doesn't project that much and projection lasts at most for an hour. There is absolutely nothing manly about this, maybe in the dry-down with a dose of wishful thinking. I cannot smell them anymore after roughly an hour, even though these fragrances are known to have quite a good performance. I just blind bought this for $25 based on a lot of recommendations from the YouTube community. After some wears though, Bois de Vetiver has grown on me. I have both Declaration and Terre de Hermes Parfum, but do not think this is redundant - Declaration is mature grown-up scent and so is TdH. I do get woody. I bought this perfume at the beginning of its production in 2017, and I still own the same bottle. Just bought this. Lagerfeld created his own line in 1984 and designed for it until 1997. Nice burst in the opening and different from many of these citrus-based freshies. And I think it gets too creamy, roselike and feminine after around two hours. More like a sweet, citrusy rose. The longevity and sillage are not strong thus may require re-application throughout the day. SuperFluo? Karl Hamburg Alster by Karl Lagerfeld is a Aromatic Fougere fragrance for men. Buy itin my opinion, obviously. A good price and longevity on me is very good. Although the scent is nothing spectacular in and of itself, the fact that it is different from other "summer" (citrusy, aquatic, etc..) scents is what merits buying it. Not woody, however. I think this fragrance is quite unique. Performance is good also. Like the reviewer below, I do not detect any blood orange.. Good concept but poor execution. Stunning bottle though! However, after concentrating I did notice both the Rose and the Vetiver, and they have been combined beautifully. If you're looking for vetiver, look elsewhere. It's a gorgeous scent that projects elegance and sophistication. I blind-bought this fragrance based on reviews. The Citrus is clear, blood orange with Mint mixes very well. Anything Jean Claude Elena I admire. This is bright, citrusy with a touch of sweetness, but not sugary sweet or overpowering. Fragrances have been available under the Karl Lagerfeld name since 1978, when Lagerfeld Classic for men was first launched. senses. He moved on to Jean Patou just three years later, and remained there for five years, designing two haute couture collections each year. In my collection, which includes many niche bottles that are much more expensive, this has become THE choice, if I'm not aiming for anything special or provocative. Surprisingly decent. I agree that it does smell very much indeed like Cartier Declaration. It opens with a lot of citrus and dries to a clean vetiver base. In short this is not a manly man form of vetiver, but a great summer fresh take that I would reach for in favour of aquatic scents. This was a nice surprise! I liked it in the beginning, but after using for a while I cant stand the smell. The Mint is not nearly as strong as in Versace Eros, JPG In The Navy or Azzaro Wild Mint. This is worth the price. To me the Vetiver is not a major player in this fragrance. Much more oging on than just vetiver. Happy to add it to my wardrobe. When I initially bought this after watching a few reviews and it finally arrived at the local Australian discounters, I honestly thought it was a generic, nice, somewhat sweet and clean fresh smell, but it was nothing special. Don't flame me, but this reminds me of Bal D'Afrique by Byredo in the top and mid. It's amazing how time and experience can change your taste in scent. Not just on me, but on my friends' skins too. Blind bought this one cause it's one of the last fragrances by Lagerfeld while he was yet alive. That lasts between 4-5 hours and its completely gone. The price is an absolute bargain. Very good price value, full bottle worthy. I hoped that Bois the vetiver's other notes such as the grapefruit, the mint or the rose notes are more prominent here but sadly not at all. Fragrance Reviews: 1,287,914 Become a member of this online perfume community and you will be able to add your own reviews. Only 30 for 50 ml boxed. Initial thoughts on this right after blind bought it was it comes across somewhere in between Y edt and edp. Maybe if it projected it would be unstoppable!, this is in the class with 4711 original. Great scent, amazing for this price (got it at 19). I don't get much vetiver either, if any. My one issue would be that it leans to the feminine side, but this could be a result of my wife's aromatherapy scents that carry a similar vetiver profile. :( Better luck next time. Light projection. Citrus, minty, rose based fragrance which does well for all seasons. It does fade fast, very quickly into a skin scent. a light version of declaration de cartier. Read about this perfume in other languages: Deutsch, Espaol, Franais, etina, Italiano, , Polski, Portugus, , , Nederlands, Srpski, Romn, , , , . People-pleasing? It feels like I stole it. The earliest edition was created in 1975 and the newest is from 2022. This is clean and fresh citrus vetiver fragrance. If Bois de Vetiver is a bit too sweet for your taste, try Lalique Pour Homme Equus. The only thing stopping me from wearing this every day right now is that it's more suited to spring and I have other better options for winter. BDV succeeds through interesting, well-crafted and intriguing ways. Big thumbs up! Opinion: We Dont Need to Worry So Much about Fragrance Reviewer Credibility, First Fragrances: Dolce & Gabbana for Women (1992), Davidoff Cool Water Street Fighter Champion Summer Editions for 2021, WPC: Interview With Alexandre Illan, Perfumer of the Rammstein Line and More, Tropical Vacations with Tommy Bahama Fragrances, Tuscany Per Uomo Aramis: Friday Dresscode Cologne, Marc Jacobs Daisy Ever So Fresh Eau de Parfum, Original vs Flanker: Elizabeth Taylor White Diamonds, Sparkling, & Night. Every time I consider wearing this fragrance, I always end up choosing Guerlain Vetiver instead because I find the quality is just that much better. This is a nice and decent smell. I smell more ambrox than vetiver. Just smell this on the store last week. I didn't like DHS 2017 at all, but this one I like. It's great on its own AND it plays so well with others! All the KL Bois de range are excellent and you can mix them with each other and the Kapsule collection to make stunning fragrances for all sexes. Famously elusive about the details of his personal life, he is believed to have been born in the 1930s. I still would not call it a vetiver-dominant fragrance, but it has become one of my favorites. I think the blood orange and vetiver combo made this strange accord, which I cannot stand it. This cologne is sooooo weak. Citrus notes are well done, rose and mint are well blended in - you can tell they are there, but never really take over.

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